Beware: Paimon Prowler: Preemptive Response(Nyeogmi; 2034 words)
Paimon Prowler has been telling other members of the hypnosis community that my beware on him is full of lies and exaggeration. I was sent a Discord chatlog of him doing this in public.
His specific responses so far have gone:
- “That stuff all happened before November 2019.”
- “These logs are missing passages.”
- “Some of these accusations don’t have logs.”
- “Those logs originate from Vylraz, who hates me anyway.”
- “I’ve quit hypnosis and released my subs.”
- “I didn’t literally say I was a god.”
- “Cherry will say I didn’t do anything sexual with him.”
- “I admonished Cherry for doing master/sub stuff with me.”
- “In the one case I invited a minor, I didn’t know they were a minor.”
- “I am a real counselor.”
- “I never did counseling one on one with people, and if I did, they were on the edge of suicide.”
- “I don’t do hypnosis in text, only in voice, so that was roleplay.”
- “The subjects asked for this.”
- “There’s no proof Harley or Jackknife did anything abusive.”
- “This callout wouldn’t hold up in a court of law.”
- “I think Tech Coyote changed.”
I have not seen responses to a lot of the accusations, including:
- the parts where he fantasizes about violence
- the parts where he tells his subjects everything else in the world except Paimon is evil
- the parts where he claims numerous disabilities such as “sleeping every nine days”
- accusations of lying about former subs like Dakinu
Paimon often brushes over those — it’s easy to say “too-intense play” about a scene that is transparently “I’m going to break you up with your partner,” and with many people he is running scenes like that at the same time as he is trying to convince them of it verbally.
These accusations are all substantiated in the other document, so I won’t recap them here. The best explanation I can think of for why Paimon didn’t mention them, given that they sound ridiculous if I paraphrase them without receipts, is that he doesn’t want you to know what they are.
One other note. A few non-Paimon people are accusing me of running a brigade against “furries who are greasers, in general.” The problem is with Paimon Prowler, not greaser furries.
I included instructions for identifying Paimon’s subs in the first document.
Paimon administrates the Greaserfurs chat room along with his sub Jackknife, so I consider that a Paimon space.
“That stuff all happened before November 2019.”
First of all, no, it didn’t. A lot of it happened in 2020, including all the stuff with Cherry.
Second of all, how is that relevant? You wouldn’t want to play with someone who ever acted like this.
“These logs are missing passages.”
There are no cases where I removed anything from any of these logs that would make Paimon look better. There are hundreds of messages of Paimon telling people they are bad, evil, Enemy, and so on. There’s like four conversations where Paimon refuses to take no for an answer, often segueing into play.
What could I have deleted that would make that look acceptable?
It’s not really feasible for me to collect the full message history for most of these, because most of these are conversations which I wasn’t in, forwarded to me by people who were in them, which inherently means they could have removed messages or avoided screenshotting incriminating things.
I am pretty sure Vylraz selectively screencapped one message to avoid including his personal information, but I didn’t end up using that screenshot as far as I remember. (Here it is.)
Most of the parts I removed were actually people’s explanations that the play was nonconsensual, (I summarized them instead) as well as long, meandering explanations of exactly what the play with Paimon was like.
In some cases I removed my theories on what Paimon did. There could be an argument that I primed people to agree by posting my theories.
Some people explained play to me in detail that I didn’t think was abusive, or that they had no proof of. Or they told me they were not personally abused py Paimon, so I didn’t include that.
Here is one of those from this evening that I didn’t use, since there’s no way to prove it.
I removed several people from the list of Paimon’s friends because I had no logs to substantiate that they had interacted with him.
I had a lot of conversations where people told me their friend was abused and would eventually show up to explain the abuse to me, but their friend never did, so I didn’t use their explanations.
One of the people I interviewed repeatedly misunderstood my questions, so I had to paraphrase them several times before I had a version they agreed to.
The closest I can think of to manipulative editing is me removing a long conversation where I misunderstood what the subject was saying happened to them and paraphrased it as something much worse. I deleted that whole tangent because the subject was insistent I had gotten it wrong.
I arguably should have used this convo, as it’s a person talking about how Paimon did text-based hypno they didn’t feel comfortable about, even though I get a few things wrong.
“Some of these accusations don’t have logs.”
Nearly all of them do. You can even turn off the accusations in favor of just browsing the logs, using the button at the top of the page.
The summary section does not include very many logs, but the accusations in the summary section are substantiated in other sections.
“Those logs originate from Vylraz, who hates me anyway.”
Most of the logs don’t come from Vylraz. I avoided using logs from Vylraz unless Paimon was speaking in those logs, and Vylraz didn’t even see the beware until about two hours before it was posted.
Vylraz barely appears in the final report.
“I’ve quit hypnosis and released my subs.”
He did not. He told some of his subs he was on hiatus and that they could continue their existing relationship with him, but only in private. He also said they should hide all evidence that they were still doing hypnosis with him until February.
His subs then removed references to Paimon from their profiles, as he told them to.
“I didn’t literally say I was a god.”
Read my doc, there’s more.
“Cherry will say I didn’t do anything sexual with him.”
Cherry will indeed say that, because Paimon told him to.
However, Cherry is lying about other things in this message that Paimon told him to write. In the above log, Cherry says he knew Paimon since 2018, but in the below log with me, Cherry says that Paimon first contacted him in June 2020.
It’s more likely Cherry met Paimon in June 2020 because that was when Cherry joined Greaserfurs, and Cherry didn’t appear to have a greaser OC (or a furry OC of any kind) before February 2020.
“I admonished Cherry for doing master/sub stuff with me.”
Paimon was initially fine with Cherry doing submissive roleplay in the SFW hypno room. It was Paimon’s other subs who complained.
Paimon tells Cherry to delete his profile text and then Cherry replaces it with something more submissive. Paimon doesn’t tell him to stop after this.
Later, Cherry deletes his FA profile text for Paimon, and Paimon deletes all logs of their Telegram conversations.
“In the one case I invited a minor, I didn’t know they were a minor.”
Paimon invited Blues and Pyro, who he knew were minors, into the NSFW play room. Here are logs of them talking about it.
Paimon denies knowing, but they say they told him.
“I am a real counselor.”
Paimon is not a counselor. He uses terminology in idiosyncratic ways that a counselor would not use (incorrect definition of “lovebombing”) and claims to have “hyperempathy disorder,” a condition not recognized by the DSM-V.
The real counselor I put his logs in front of said his advice is senseless and harmful. A real counselor wouldn’t say any of these things.
“I never did counseling one on one with people, and if I did, they were on the edge of suicide.”
Paimon does not describe his actions as “counseling” in the logs I have copies of, but he does say “I’m a counselor” as a way of being taken seriously, then foists advice unilaterally. His title often changes between “relationship counselor,” “counselor,” and “abuse counselor.”
Here are three cases where I’m aware of him using his title or implying he can offer mental health services. None involve suicide:
- He promised Pyro hypnosis to resolve his depression and instead hypnotized Pyro into being his boyfriend.
- He told an anonymous sub his partner wasn’t letting him be true to himself when his partner objected to greaser play.
- He told Vylraz not to accuse him of abuse because it might give him PTSD.
The second example is Person 5 from the Dronification telegram group doc. I am only allowed to post logs of the third example, so here they are.
“I don’t do hypnosis in text, only in voice, so that was roleplay.”
Here is the subject from the cult-like behavior section of my original doc, replying to this screencap.
Because he usually does play in voice first of all and uses reinduction triggers instead of formal inductions, he doesn’t use inductions very often in text. He makes heavy use of the “deep down” and brackets triggers in most of the logs I saw, including the ones in the original document
Here is a text hypnosis session with a short induction from November 6, 2018.
Paimon does lots of triggerplay in text. Here are some subs describing their triggers, explicitly indicating that the point of those triggers was to change their thoughts and feelings.
In one case, Paimon claims all of his suggestions are “keyed to his voice.”
But in this log he appears to use a reinduction trigger, then reinforce a suggestion over text.
Paimon often segues to long stretches of “roleplay” without a cue and without asking the other person to enact their character. These roleplay logs almost never have out-of-character moments.
During these logs, he makes lots of suggestions about adoring Paimon (and hating real-life partners) that would not be appropriate for a greaser roleplay scene but would be appropriate for real-life abuse.
“Hating everyone who’s not a greaser” and “hating anyone who wants me sexually” are not related to the greaser aesthetic, nor are they consistent with what Paimon says he wants outside of these scenes.
Those messages go uncommented-on by the people he sends them to except one person. This is consistent with the above “you will not be aware of these messages” suggestion and inconsistent with roleplay.
In these logs, he is clearly suggesting how the other person will respond to a comment he is making:
If this is roleplaying, Paimon is apparently roleplaying “a scene where Paimon hypnotizes the subject into breaking up with their actual boyfriend.”
In one case a subject in the logs identifies that Paimon is “forcing them to be like that” after triggerplay and asks him to stop.
“The subjects asked for this.”
Prove it, motherfucker. Show me logs of even one person saying “hypnotize me into abandoning my boyfriend.”
“There’s no proof Harley or Jackknife did anything abusive.”
Even if they hadn’t, Paimon did. The beware is about him.
Despite that, here’s a log of Jackknife telling a minor that if he dares to leave Paimon, Paimon will kill himself.
From the original document, here’s Harley nonconsensually greasing up somebody who just left. (Paimon will call this roleplay — there’s no triggerplay and it’s coercive.)
“This callout wouldn’t hold up in a court of law.”
This is not a court of law.
“I think Tech Coyote changed.”
Want to see logs of Paimon defending Tech Coyote? I do too!
PS1: Having seen the inside of Tech’s house, there’s a swastika on the wall.
PS2: I said Pai invited Tech during a period when he said he was curating his group more. I did not say the announcement came first; I said the announcement was about the previous few months. Pai invited Tech days before the announcement.